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  #61 (permalink)  
Old July 9th, 2003, 07:09 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Benjamin,

Celebrity represents what you may not want in a cruise. That's why there's a Celebrity and lines, more upscale or more downscale, with a different attitude about dress. Attitudes about adherence to the spirit of the occasion, in any form, dress or comportment, may be more rigid on Celebrity. And that's how some of us want it and want to share it with likeminded people. We don't appreciate people "crashing" the party with their own ideas about what's comfortable for them. What goes for line A or B doesn't have to be across the board to include line C and D. The cruiselines, for variety's sake, need not be monolithic across the board.

Very well said! I could not agree more, and I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way!

A "take all comers" attittude can only bring the lowest common denominator -- and most passengers who book a Celebrity cruise have a different expectation.

Norm.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old July 9th, 2003, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Norm:

Understand your last post. Point I was making was that not all would define casual as you just have. In Radisson's world, sports coat without tie qualifies for informal. Casual, you can leave off the coat.

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  #63 (permalink)  
Old July 9th, 2003, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

momof4,

Why is that you are so concerned with making Celebrity an ELITE line of cruising?

Celebrity is -- and has always been -- a "premium" cruise line, like Holland America Lines and Princess Cruises. It is not a high end luxury line, but it also is not a line for the unwashed masses. Like other premium cruise lines, Celebrity maintains certain expectations that most mainline lines don't maintain -- and that includes an expectation of proper dress.

So why are you trying to turn Celebrity into a "mainstream" or even a "bargain basement" line for the "unwashed masses" who can't afford to meet Celebrity's standards?

Celebrity REALLY held to the standard that you and Norm are suggesting, it would eliminate ALOT of interested people, only for the reason that many would not want to be around this type of cruiser, it would lend to a very boring atmosphere.

That depends entirely upon what makes people "interesting" to you.

Norm.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old July 9th, 2003, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Marc,

I am waiting until the results of the rebranding are apparent on whether Celebrity is returning to its roots as a premium cruise line.

What "rebranding" do you mean? Celebrity Cruises is still Celebrity Cruises, and is remaining Celebrity Cruises.

Norm.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old July 9th, 2003, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

momof4,

If you are dressed in a suit, and you go to a baseball game or a football game, the referee or the usher doesn't come up to you and say that you are inproperly dressed and thus unwelcome. Not at all, you may feel a little out of place, but you are welcome still the same. You came to the game, you paid for your ticket, and you came to enjoy the game. Nobody really cares about what you are wearing. Casual tennis shoes and jeans are the appropriate wear, and most will be wearing them. I understand that cruiselines have dress codes, and most people abide by them, and uphold them, including myself. Anything I have to say will not change your mind on this issue, and you have said nothing that changes mine.

Last I checked, a baseball game does not specify a dress code (though there may be a presumption that one will wear clothes...). Most cruise lines, OTOH, do prescribe dress codes -- and there's an expectation that all passengers will conform. Thus, you analogy is seriously deficient.

Norm.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old July 9th, 2003, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Norm:

Easy, start acting like a premium line. Now, I sail Radisson exclusively. At some point, I know I will want to venture to other ships. Celebrity seems to be the most likely choice. As you point out, Celebrity is suffering from trying to be all things to all people. That needs to end and Celebrity needs to find their niche (much like NCL has found their niche). With as many berths as Celebrity is sailing with today, I do not think they will be successful. They need to sell some of their ships and develop a dedicated nucleus of cruisers.

just my two cents,

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  #67 (permalink)  
Old July 9th, 2003, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Marc,

I think you are right. Catering to a common denominator while extolling past virtues is the current Celebrity. They did not need Summit and Constellation, and they may not be in a position to bring past virtues up to past levels (food, service, flair).

They were on their way to becoming a niche line, but the powers that be want expansion. I don't know about a niche line doing much of the usual, and nearby, itineraries. Celebrity probably needed to be in some areas of the U.S. and abroad that would attract those that could see its virtues. Right now they are selling a commodity with a certain style and promoting and elevating the style, while offering what appeals across the board. Bad recipe.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old July 10th, 2003, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Hey guys, Celebrity is NOT an upscale line! Nor premium. Don't get me wrong... my last three cruises were on X and I loved them... but let's not get into fantasies here...

Just look at the pricing. $600 or less for a week-long cruise does not equate to premium. And Norm, interesting to note that it usually costs more to sail on a Voyager class ship for a week in the Caribbean than a Celebrity ship or HAL ship.

HAL/Celebrity may just be a LITTLE bit above Princess/RCI/NCL when it comes to service and/or food... but in the end, they are all very similar bangs for your buck.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old July 12th, 2003, 09:56 AM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

I think the bottom line to this entire thread (and I am sure that no one will disagree!!) is:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BAD CRUISE!!!

Obviosly I am not referring to the Norway recently and other catastrophies.....

I have been on 5 with 6 and 7 booked and have never had a really bad experience. The worst scenario for us was on a Carnival ship last June. Previous to that we had been on all RCCL and it just wasn't as clean, service not as good, little things like that. We still had a fantastic time because back to my original point, there is no such thing as a bad cruise. I have run into people who say they will never cruise again because they had one bad experience, but to those people, I say they will never be completely happy, and maybe they didn't do their research. They need to determine what it is they enjoy and go out and find the right cruise for them. As for Rev22:17 who several threads ago put where he thought cruise lines should go - I have been on RCCL 3 times and in my opinion, they should not be in the same category with Carnival. Maybe they need a category o thier own in between Mainstream and Premium.

It is all about what you happen to be looking for for that particular cruise. I have been on Carnival, RCCL, and Celebrity. Here are my thoughts:

Carnival : inexpensive party ships that I would go on with a large group of friends looking to keep pricing down.

Celebrity: Quiet and laid back, this I would cruise again just me and my husband looking to relax.

RCCL: Has something for everyone. I have cruised this with my family 3 times with people ages 15 - 65. It is perfect for large groups who enjoy different things.

You just have to determine what type of cruise it is you are looking for and if you do your research, I will assure almost anyone will have a good time. The ones who don't woldn't have a good time on a land vacation either!
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old July 12th, 2003, 02:04 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

I completely agree.

An upscale line is not one for which a spacious oceanview room with balcony can be had for $780/pp/wk.

If Celebrity keeps dropping its prices it will attract a different crowd, a crowd not accustomed to dressing for dinner.

I despise formal wear, but the large cabins and excellent food are the draw for me.

For those stuffed shirts who suggest I might be happier with another cruise line, please suggest one with the same size cabins, same quality of food, and same level of service at the same price.

I thought so.

Some of us cruise Celebrity in spite of their dress code.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old July 12th, 2003, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Why do I suspect that I'll be able to identify you, Norm, if I see you on the Millenium?
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old July 13th, 2003, 06:26 AM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

CruiseBoozer: You may want to try Oceania. From what I've heard you'll get the same experience as Celebrity without dressing up.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old July 13th, 2003, 07:42 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

What is upscale anyway,at one time in my life i could't even afford a ferry ride ,now i make more money then most ,but i still enjoy celebrity and i wish all could experience a celebrity cruise and its enjoyments wheather its premium or not .
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old July 14th, 2003, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Augustmiles,

My sentiments exactly! thanks for putting it simply!
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old July 14th, 2003, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

CruiseBoozer,

Why do I suspect that I'll be able to identify you, Norm, if I see you on the Millenium?

I don't know -- have we met before?

But I'm not booked aboard MV Millenium. I'm booked aboard MV Infinity, so your odds of recognizing me aboard MV Millenium are pretty slim.

Norm.
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old July 14th, 2003, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Marc,

Understand your last post. Point I was making was that not all would define casual as you just have. In Radisson's world, sports coat without tie qualifies for informal. Casual, you can leave off the coat.

According to traditional etiquette, "informal" does require a tie -- but your post really illustrates the importance of reading each cruise line's description of its terminology because many cruise lines do take latitude.

IIRC, though, my description of casual indicated that a sport coat is optional -- which means that a shirt with an open collar and a pair of slacks. without the coat, is fine.

Norm.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old July 14th, 2003, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Marc,

As you point out, Celebrity is suffering from trying to be all things to all people. That needs to end and Celebrity needs to find their niche (much like NCL has found their niche). With as many berths as Celebrity is sailing with today, I do not think they will be successful. They need to sell some of their ships and develop a dedicated nucleus of cruisers.

Actually, my impression is that Princess Cruises has been far worse than Celebrity Cruises in trying to be all things to all people. Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. (NYSE: RCL), the parent company of Celebrity Cruises, has another cruise line -- Royal Caribbean International -- that's positioned at the top of the "mainstream" segment. Celebrity Cruises would hurt its sister line by lowering its standards too much.

If anything, my impression is that Celebrity Cruises has developed an image of trying to be more "upscale" than the other "premium" lines -- though I'm not sure whether and to what extent it really is. The most recent changes -- for example, a category of standard cabins that offer the amenities otherwise found in suites, undoubtedly for a premium over the fare for a standard cabin without those amenities -- seem to be aimed at moving things more "upscale" rather than restoring what once was. These changes will enhance such an image.

Norm.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old July 14th, 2003, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

jsea,

Just look at the pricing. $600 or less for a week-long cruise does not equate to premium. And Norm, interesting to note that it usually costs more to sail on a Voyager class ship for a week in the Caribbean than a Celebrity ship or HAL ship.

It depends what category of cabin you are able to book. Historically, cabins on cruise ships usually sell out from the bottom up and from the top down, converging in the middle -- but not always.

In any case, most markets exhibit some degree of overlap between a "premium" product and a "mainstream" product. Consider automobiles, for example -- a Mercury ("premium" brand) traditionally cost more than the equivalent Ford ("mainstream" brand), but the base model also had more standard features. If you load up the Ford with optons, OTOH, the price would go above that of the base Mercury by a significant amount.

It's the same way in cruising. An cabin on a "premium" ship usually will sell for more than an equivalent cabin on a "mainstream" ship, but the "come-on" prices that you see in advertisements are not necessarily for equivalent cabins. One might be for an inside cabin on a lower deck, while the other might be for a cabin on an upper deck. In fact the "premium" lines usually have a few bottom categories on which they don't offer early booking fares so that they remain open for "come-on" pricing -- but these cabins are so few that they sell out almost immediately when the "come-on" ads appear.

Norm.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old July 14th, 2003, 07:06 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

mcasey,

As for Rev22:17 who several threads ago put where he thought cruise lines should go...

Just by way of clarification, I have been following the industry for many years. What I posted was far from personal opinion, but rather the consensus of published reviews from several sources.

... I have been on RCCL 3 times and in my opinion, they should not be in the same category with Carnival.

There's little doubt that Royal Caribbean International offers a vastly superior product to either Carnival Cruise Line. Indeed, published reivew Royal Caribbean International consistently scores at the top of the "mainstream" segment of the market while ranking Carnival Cruise Line near the bottom. I have also noticed that Carnival Cruise Line has been discounting cruises a lot more than other "mainstream" cruise lines in recent years, and Kuki mentioned a while back that he would rank Carnival Cruise Line in the "budget" segment. Nonetheless, the published reviews seem to continue giving Carnival Cruise Line "mainstream" status.

Then again, the published reviews have consistently given the lowest ranking in each segment of the market to the respective cruise lines owned by Carnival Corporation (NYSE: CCL). Princess Cruises had always scored well in the "premium" segment, so it will be interesting to see what happens to that line's scores over the next few years in view of the merger of operations of the parent company of Princess Cruises, formerly known as P&O Princess Cruises Plc. and now known as Carnival Plc. (LSE: CUK), with Carnival Corporation. I expect a gradual deterioration....

Norm.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old July 14th, 2003, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Norm,

This wasn't an advertisement that I saw. It is from pricing cruises.

For example, on the 3 January 2004 Eastern Caribbean sailing of HAL's Zuiderdam you can get on the boat for $700 even. On RCI's Navigator of the Seas you can save a few bucks and get on for $632. If you leave a day later on the 4th on Celebrity's Millennium it's even cheaper at $616! And this is supposed to be the "premium" line.

But continuing... lowest price options are in bold.

Outside cabin
Zuiderdam - $867
Navigator - $795
Millennium - $685

Balcony cabin
Zuiderdam - $1014
Navigator - $925
Millennium - $816

Bottom Suite
[/b]Zuiderdam - $1412[/b]
Navigator - $1631
Millennium - $1761

Top Suite
[/b]Zuiderdam - $3868[/b]
Navigator - $4913
Millennium - n/a

If you notice the trend, the two "premium" lines have the cheapest rates when compared to the mass market RCI.

Hmmm... so... it costs less to get a premium product apparently.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old July 14th, 2003, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Oops... haha, that should read: "lowest price options are in surrounded by and ."

Sorry, I am posting illiterate apparently. And if there is a way to edit my post I haven't found that out, either!

My apologies... but the meaning of my message still made it through I trust.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old July 15th, 2003, 02:21 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

i am going on celebrity, i will not wear a tux OR a tie, yet my STYLE, which comes from being COMFORTABLE with yourself, will outshine most of you pretentious people. the only one i would consider being seated at my table is MOMOF4, sounds like she has a heart. maybe someone should start a cruise line with JUST tables for 2, then none of you will have to put up with all the deficiencies of the others onboard that you so love to point out. after reading all this nonsense perhaps Rodney King was on to something; cant we all just cruise along? you all wear me out!
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old July 15th, 2003, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Al,

I go by pubs that state proper attire REQUIRED, no baseball caps and no bare feet, no offensive t-shirts, etc. It has nothing to do with being comfortable with yourself. It has to do with a dress that is what the establishment deems as appropriate and in the spirit of the product on designated evenings. The pretention here is yours, go on your ultra casual line, some of which are more expensive than Celebrity. But coming on Celebrity, a cruise line with formal dress, with your attitude, is crashing the event. And it is all about your attitude and other selfish attitudes like yours.

Establishments can set dress standards just like they can designate smoking areas, have cell phone policies, have age limits, etc. Don't like it, no one is forcing you to use their establishmet.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old July 15th, 2003, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Norwegian Sky does have tables for 2 as well as freestyle.

I was originally booked on them before changing my reservation to the Millie.

After meeting these folks, I might just switch back.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old July 16th, 2003, 09:58 AM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Big Rooster,

Don't be discouraged by these boards. If you cruise during the summer, you are likely to be in good company. If your cruise is during the fall or winter, you may find yourself in the midst of this attitude, maybe not. Two years ago, I took a Celebrity cruise in Feb with my daughters, there were alot of older (nice) folks, that is to be expected, considering the time of year. We took a Celebrity this past June, and found many REAL people. The type you are seeing here generally keep to themselves.... Except for the few that flag down the maitre 'D to let them know someone is out of dresscode. I think that is rare, and Celebrity surely knows how to deal with it.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old July 16th, 2003, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Author: Big Rooster (net9-2.cvtv.net)
Date: 07-15-03 18:18

Norwegian Sky does have tables for 2 as well as freestyle.

I was originally booked on them before changing my reservation to the Millie.

After meeting these folks, I might just switch back.


Here's a case of someone who booked NCL because of freestyle and what it has to offer, then changed to the Millennium, expecting the Celebrity experience to adapt to what they wanted from NCL's Freestyle.

To my mind this makes NO sense at all! If you found a cruise line which offers the experience you're looking for. Why would you want to change? And why would you expect the people who've booked Celebrity, because of the experience they offer to adapt to what you want????

It truly seems odd to me, in this thread, that it's the people who are saying " It's my vacation, I'll do it what I want, regardless of what Celebrity states in their promotional material, and regardles of what other passengers think " who are calling those who want Celebrity to offer what they say they do, pretentious.

This seems like one of those "DUH" moments to me!

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Old July 16th, 2003, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Kuki,
Kudos to you! When you consider booking a cruise, with any cruise line, you have to consider what their agenda is. If their agenda is not your agenda then you are making the biggest mistake in the world. Different strokes for different folks! It pays a cruiser to do their research, ask people who have travelled on the different cruise lines what they liked or dislike about them so you can form an opinion about what to expect on your cruise.
Linda G.
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Old July 16th, 2003, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

Bravo, Kuki. Beautifully stated.

There's a reason for an NCL type of cruise and Celebrity type of cruise. Some of us like one over the other and some of us can go for both. Some of my friends would enjoy the Celebrity experience, some more the NCL, some both. I can go for both and *adapt* to the ship and line, and not expect the line and ship to adapt to me. It may be a vacation that I'm choosing, but it is a shared one. It is my vacation as well as vacations for thousands of others on the ship and some compromises may need to be made. One can choose and own an attitude of sharing or choose selfishness to bring into any social experience.

And this stuff about real people don't wear tuxes or dress stylishly is, I think, juvenile.
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Old July 16th, 2003, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

The reason I changed is because my whiny fiancee nagged the crap out of me.

If Celebrity would actually ENFORCE their dress code folks might actually take it seriously.
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Old July 16th, 2003, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: Is Celebrity REALLY an upscale line?

The key word here is "CHOICE". We have so many different cruise lines to CHOOSE
from, offering different styles and ambiance in cruising as well as freestyle, personal
choice or traditional dining. It is up to us INDIVIDUAL PERSONALITIES to pick and
choose the right cruise by doing the research. It is YOUR vacation and you can
do whatever you want as long as that cruise you choose is the right one for you!

I for one, enjoy many different cruise styles. I have enjoyed Carnival's cruises,
Holland America and NCL. Obviously Holland America is a cut above Carnival
and NCL and I enjoyed the little extra pampering and the more formal ambiance.
But I also enjoyed the casual, fun atmosphere offered by Carnival and NCL. It
really comes down to what my husband and I are in the mood for at the time of
booking our cruise. For example, when we booked Holland America, we had
just suffered a tremendous family crisis and by the time it was over, we were
ready for a lot of pampering and a little first class treatment and we felt we got
it.

So, be sure you know yourself and what you want in a cruise or any vacation for
that matter-- do the research and book accordingly. Then you'll likely will have
a positive and memorable vacation experience!

JanGail
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