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  #1  
Old January 29th, 2013, 11:32 AM
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Default Gay Scout Leaders

If I had a young son in the scouts , I would not feel comfortable if one or more of the scout leaders was homosexual. Jump on this one.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 01:01 PM
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I agree with you Paul! I had applauded the boy scouts for keeping to their Christian values.....seems they are loosing their way.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 01:28 PM
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How many gay people have either of you met? Had an intelligent conversation with? Got to know personally? I bet I know the answer.

Facts are, the scouts of past and present have been riddled with pedophiles, most of which have families, and are NOT openly gay.

Its best to discriminate from a distance, right? That way you are most definitely "INFORMED".

By the way, I bet you do know a Homosexual or two. In fact, you listen to them intently, and follow their BS unquestioningly... They preach to you every Sunday.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 03:31 PM
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WRONG! I have known and been friends with many homosexuals. I also
remember being approached by homosexuals who also may have been pedophiles as a young boy. If there were any with me while I was in the scouts, they did not make themselves known.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 05:45 PM
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Cough. Cough.
B.S. detector overloading. Prejudice detector damaged beyond repair.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 02:59 PM
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I agree with you Paul! I had applauded the boy scouts for keeping to their Christian values.....seems they are loosing their way.
Being gay is antithetical to Christian values?

That's interesting, because in all the books of the New Testament there are exactly zero words spoken by Jesus about homosexuality in any context whatsoever.

Yes, I know about the Holiness Codes in Leviticus; and yes, I know about what Paul said. But I also know the context of all these passages, the backdrops against which they were written. And I know how they all pale in the face of the great themes of the Bible. And the greatest of those themes is love.

A prominent Christian church once put out a pamphlet entitled, "What Jesus Had to Say About Same-Sex Love." Inside, the pamphlet was blank.

Indeed.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 04:11 PM
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The Lord is the same, yesterday, today and forever! The Lord looks at homosexuality as a abomination in His eyes. It is a slap in the face of the creator for someone to think they are something they were never created to be!

Jesus, who is God come in the flesh, never spoke about it because it was already covered in the Levitical law.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 05:06 PM
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If I had a young son in the scouts , I would not feel comfortable if one or more of the scout leaders was homosexual. Jump on this one.
I agree with you 100% on this one .
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Old January 30th, 2013, 05:51 PM
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Homosexual is not the same thing as pediphile.

I know a number of 'gay' men and women that are excellent citizens, school teaches, cops, doctors etc..

Sexual preference has NOTHING to do with the quality of a persons charactor.

(I know I know I cant spell)
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Old January 30th, 2013, 06:40 PM
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The Lord is the same, yesterday, today and forever! The Lord looks at homosexuality as a abomination in His eyes.
Gee, I'll have to send a memo to our gay friend who was best man at our wedding 43 years ago. I'll bet he doesn't realize that. Strange, isn't it, that he's been in a loving monogamous relationship with his partner for almost that long. For all that time they've been happier than many hetero couples we know, done more good in this world than most, and after all this time the Lord has still not smitten them. The only thing that's abominable here is your intolerance.

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It is a slap in the face of the creator for someone to think they are something they were never created to be!
The creator would much prefer to have a beer with a loving gay person than with an intolerant straight person.

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Jesus, who is God come in the flesh, never spoke about it because it was already covered in the Levitical law.
Oh, so once it's been said once, it doesn't bear repeating. But if repetition isn't necessary, then there's no reason for economic justice to be talked about again and again in the Bible. And of course why do they keep talking about love incessantly across all those books when it is amply covered in the Torah (the first five)?

And we'll leave aside for the purposes of this discussion the question of whether Jesus ever actually READ the text of Leviticus.

My take is that Jesus was a pretty smart fellow, who generally spoke up about what would be called today his "core values." If he had strong feelings about homosexuality, it's not very likely he'd say, "see Leviticus." In fact, the thought of it actually makes me laugh.

There's another problem with the Leviticus business. The passages about homosexuality are embedded in a list of "abominations", all of which carry the death penalty. They include adultery, incest -- and cursing one's mother and father. If we're going to seize on one of these, shouldn't we take the whole lot? Other violations include knowing a menstruating woman "in the Biblical sense." Eating sacrificial meat on the third day. Crossbreeding animals. Sowing fields with two kinds of seed. Wearing garments of two different materials (which makes that coat of many colors thing highly suspect). Wearing tattoos. Trimming beards.

Are some of these 600 laws more important than others, Truck? And if so, who gets to decide which ones really count? You? If they're all to be treated equally and taken seriously in the 21st century, I've got to believe that between the beards and tattoos alone most truck drivers are in a lot of trouble.

Which of course brings up the whole area of context. I've read enough Bible scholarship to understand what the Holiness Codes are and why they were written. I won't go into that here. But unlike you, I believe it is possible to try to understand the Bible contextually and still respect it.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:00 PM
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Another day another phobia. The GOP certainly goes out of it's way to make sure it will never win another Presidential election. It's a diverse country. Hopefully it will never turn into Germany pre-WWII.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 11:27 PM
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Another day another phobia. The GOP certainly goes out of it's way to make sure it will never win another Presidential election. It's a diverse country. Hopefully it will never turn into Germany pre-WWII.
I bet they will call themselves "Christians" if and when they try to do it.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 11:32 AM
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Have you ever considered that some of those catholic priests who molested young boys just might have also been homosexuals? Just saying.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 12:13 PM
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Have you ever considered that some of those catholic priests who molested young boys just might have also been homosexuals? Just saying.
Have you ever considered that Scout leaders are not required to take the vows of celibacy that are required of Catholic priests? A requirement found nowhere in scripture? And that it is this unnatural suppression of sexuality that is at the root of so much of the scandalous behavior by these men?

You're telling me that in the 21st century you still don't understand the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia?

And that you still don't understand the difference between homosexuality and same-sex rape of the kind that takes place routinely in prisons and among some Catholic clergy?

Absolutely amazing.

Of course it is true that some Catholic priests who molest young boys are homosexuals. But they don't molest them because they're homosexual; they molest them because they're pedophiles. And most of them became pedophiles for the reason I noted above. You've really got to get out more and do a little reading, Paul.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 02:14 PM
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I simply maintain that men who love other men should not be in a position where they lead a group of impressionable males. The same applies to lesbians leaders of girl scouts. Also, a priest taking a vow of celibacy isn't much different from a young person taking a vow of chastity, both too easy to break given the temptation and opportunity.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 05:25 PM
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I simply maintain that men who love other men should not be in a position where they lead a group of impressionable males. The same applies to lesbians leaders of girl scouts. Also, a priest taking a vow of celibacy isn't much different from a young person taking a vow of chastity, both too easy to break given the temptation and opportunity.
My God, this discussion is about the adults, not the kids. The kids should be deemed the innocents across the board, no matter whether we talking about the Catholic church, the Scouts, schools, sports teams, you name it. Whether or not they take a "vow of chastity" has nothing to do with any of this. They must be not be approached sexually by adults whether they have or not.

A priest's vow of celibacy is an entirely different thing, because he's a bloody adult who's theoretically committing to never have sex for the rest of his life. This is unnatural and unnecessary.

You're obviously not interested in any of this. I'm just glad that, like so much of the rest of society, enlightenment will finally reach the Scout's board next week, and this issue will finally be resolved properly.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 09:37 PM
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I propose the best boy scout leader to end this issue is an openly gay female.

1. There is no method of determining sexual orientation beyond taking someone's word, people lie.
2. This excludes all men of possibly being gay and possibly and however unlikely of being a pedophile as well.
3. A straight woman scout leader could also be a pedophile.
4. Therefore the scouts should be lead by lesbians only and conversly the girl scouts should be lead by open gay men.

Discuss :P
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Old January 31st, 2013, 09:57 PM
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I propose the best boy scout leader to end this issue is an openly gay female.

1. There is no method of determining sexual orientation beyond taking someone's word, people lie.
2. This excludes all men of possibly being gay and possibly and however unlikely of being a pedophile as well.
3. A straight woman scout leader could also be a pedophile.
4. Therefore the scouts should be lead by lesbians only and conversly the girl scouts should be lead by open gay men.

Discuss :P
Yeah, that actually occurred to me too, but I thought that if I said it I'd be accused of being a smarta**. (Well, I'm accused of that anyway, so why worry?) There is a certain logic to it.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 06:58 AM
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I simply maintain that men who love other men should not be in a position where they lead a group of impressionable males. The same applies to lesbians leaders of girl scouts. Also, a priest taking a vow of celibacy isn't much different from a young person taking a vow of chastity, both too easy to break given the temptation and opportunity.
I congratulate you for taking this position . Many people fear airing their views on a public board .

I am not going to say that some of my best friends are gay ,because they are not .However,I have a cousin who is and he is a great person but I would never desire him to be a Boy Scout leader .
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Old February 1st, 2013, 10:15 AM
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This is not about adults who do bad things, but about the children. Never completely trust an adult with your child. Get involved when you can.

Enpower children to tell, when someone does something that is uncomfortable.

I saw the woman who stirred up this mess. In her interview she bragged twice about the fact that she is up for a GLade award for her efforts.

The problem with what she has done is the two major supporters of the boy scouts do not accept being Gay as a good thing. If they pull their support, then the boy scouts will fall apart. She will have done what so many have done, and that is I can't have it my way, then nobody can.

Both of our children were cub, and then boy scouts. We were lucky that Jim was able to be the leader when they were younger, and when they moved up, we knew the new leader.

When Jim was the leader, he had kids that couldn't afford the uniform, and the things you need, so the scout org. provided for them. These boys had no father in the home, so Jim provided that leadership, and the scouts provided for the rules, and regs, to shape these boys to become men.

FYI we never asked these kids if they were Gay. We never asked the leaders what they did in the bedroom, and they didn't wear what they were on their sleave.

You surely have to ask yourself what is the most important thing. Having a positive situation for kids, or making sure that their are rights for a few gay people.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:05 PM
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Psst: I heard somewhere that if a gay guy sneezes, you can catch his gayness.

Pass it on.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:21 PM
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quote Luanne Russo "or making sure that their are rights for a few gay people"

On a serious note, how about we round up everyone with certain foreign-sounding names, like say "Luanne Russo", and put them in concentration camps for the so-called greater good? Discriminate against them for no other reason than their name and country of origin. Erase their civil liberties on a whim, or shall I say, Executive Orders of the President?

What say we do that to a few ITALIAN people? Countermand their rights under the Constitution by simple proclamation?

Can't happen? Well, it did.

Italian American internment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:40 PM
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This is not about adults who do bad things, but about the children. Never completely trust an adult with your child.
Not even Jim?

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Originally Posted by Luanne Russo View Post
The problem with what she has done is the two major supporters of the boy scouts do not accept being Gay as a good thing. If they pull their support, then the boy scouts will fall apart. She will have done what so many have done, and that is I can't have it my way, then nobody can.
If the Scouts' survival depends on contributions by uninformed, intolerant people, well then I won't cry too many tears. However, I don't believe this is true, or that the Scouts will disappear because of their newly-enlightened stance.

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Both of our children were cub, and then boy scouts. We were lucky that Jim was able to be the leader when they were younger, and when they moved up, we knew the new leader.
Oh, so Jim and the other guy CAN be trusted. It's all those other people you have to be afraid of. Especially the gay ones.

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When Jim was the leader, he had kids that couldn't afford the uniform, and the things you need, so the scout org. provided for them. These boys had no father in the home, so Jim provided that leadership, and the scouts provided for the rules, and regs, to shape these boys to become men. FYI we never asked these kids if they were Gay. We never asked the leaders what they did in the bedroom, and they didn't wear what they were on their sleave.
Well, now I'm really confused. First you're against the effort to allow gay leaders. Now you say that you never asked them what they did in the bedroom. So I guess what you just said mattered a lot doesn't matter any more.

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You surely have to ask yourself what is the most important thing. Having a positive situation for kids, or making sure that their are rights for a few gay people.
Ooops! No, let's amend that. Now we're back to being against rights for gay people again. So I guess the part about the woman and her outrageous self-centered advocacy is really what you meant after all. Hard to tell. You keep going back and forth.

But here's something I know for sure: In your last sentence you position "a positive situation for kids" and "rights for gay people" as an either/or proposition. That is blatant garbage, and as a 100% straight guy I'm offended by it on behalf of gay men everywhere. It will be the rule, not the exception, to have gays providing positive leadership in Scouting once these unbelievable, bigoted rules are changed.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:41 PM
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I propose the best boy scout leader to end this issue is an openly gay female.

1. There is no method of determining sexual orientation beyond taking someone's word, people lie.
2. This excludes all men of possibly being gay and possibly and however unlikely of being a pedophile as well.
3. A straight woman scout leader could also be a pedophile.
4. Therefore the scouts should be lead by lesbians only and conversly the girl scouts should be lead by open gay men.

Discuss :P
I would suppose openly gays and lesbians could be closet BIs?
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Old February 1st, 2013, 04:57 PM
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You guys are truely sick.

I have NO problems with gay people. I have no problem with Gay scout masters!!!

I do care about children, who will miss out if the program is torn apart.

Ship, You are the sickest. How dare you disparage my husbands name.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 05:21 PM
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You guys are truely sick.

I have NO problems with gay people. I have no problem with Gay scout masters!!!

I do care about children, who will miss out if the program is torn apart.

Ship, You are the sickest. How dare you disparage my husbands name.
Well, it won't be torn apart; if anything it'll be enriched. So you can relax on that score. But it sure sounded like you're against gay Scoutmasters. When you pit "positive experiences for kids" against gay rights, it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

And nobody disparaged anybody's name, unless you're claiming that saying that "Russo" sounds Italian is disparagement. It does sound Italian, and some of my best friends are Italian. And I love to visit Italy. And Italian food is great. And "Russo" sounds Italian. So what? (And I'm not even the guy who said it).
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Old February 1st, 2013, 05:40 PM
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I wasnt disparaging.
I was making a valid point about civil liberties,
which promptly went right over your head.

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Old February 2nd, 2013, 09:16 AM
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You are speaking to my area of expertise. I have been a Conference Center and Camp Director for nearly 40 years. I have visited, studied, and help design many different youth programs in camps nationwide. I have seen more studies that I ever really wanted to, set in more meetings about this than should ever be necessary, and help to forge some of the polices my parent organization, the United Methodist Church, now uses at our centers.

Worrying about keeping the kids (and adults) that come to my center and attend our youth programs has honestly kept me up some nights. This has not been some abstract problem with an organization I have loose links to. This situation is something I deal with in my work on a regular basis. We are actually dealing with a real situation right now that has come up at one of our centers involving a 20 something male counselor and a 15 year old girl.

I AM SPEAKING WITH PRACTICAL, ON THE JOB, KNOWLEDGE.


I began my career many years ago being anti-gay. After struggling with this issue for many years, and over those years, meeting, getting to know, and work with people that were homosexual, I have come full circle.

A person that sexually preys on children is a pedophile.

Being a homosexual or a heterosexual does not preclude that you are a pedophile.

There are some huge national youth organizations that have homosexuals in their leadership. I know some of them. Their main interested in being involved with the organization is to teach children self respect and worth. They do this because of the struggles they had as children with their sexual orientation.

We should not point fingers at those who have some reservations to having people over all male or all female organizations that are oriented toward the same sex.

The bottom line and emphasis MUST be on the safety of the child. Of course we want to be inclusive and nondiscriminatory. However, once again as we develop our leadership models for these organizations we must do so realizing that we need to error on the side of safety for the innocent.

This is actually quite simple to do. Those of us that are in the child care industry, camps here in Colorado are licensed child care centers, have dealt with the issue of safety for our children for decades.

Many of the major denominations have come up with comprehensive policies dealing with child safety. The UMC has come up with "Safe Sanctuaries."



http://www.susumc.org/index.php?opti...803&Itemid=548

One of our regional camping executives, (we call these "Conferences) was openly gay. He was very effective, did a great job before he retired, and implemented many, many, policies that helped to keep the kids at camp safe. He, like most of us heterosexuals, wasn't sexually interested in KIDS, he just wanted a caring and committed relationship with a partner he loved - just like me.

I certainly understand the hesitation. I really believe that a lot of time it does not come from prejudice as much as it come for concern for our kids. Nothing wrong with that!

However, while keeping the focus squarely on the safety of the children, we do them no service by excluding caring individuals of different sexual orientations, as long as that orientation is not that of a pedophile.

My point is that:
  • Homosexuals have been serving for years now in organizations serving children.
  • The huge majority of homosexuals, just like heterosexuals are NOT PEDOPHILES.
  • Keeping children safe from pedophiles has little to do with the sexual orientation of your leadership or staff - UNLESS YOU HAVE HIRED A PEDOPHILE!
  • There are well proven systems of management for youth organizations that greatly reduce the risk of bringing a pedophile into the organization, and reducing opportunities for those that slip by the net.

In summary, once again, I understand where people's fears come from. I believe them to be coming from a stance where they are pro kid, not anti-gay. However, I can honestly assure you from my extensive experience with this situation that banning homosexuals from any youth organization will do nothing to keep our children safer.

All it does is to discriminate against a group of people.
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  #29  
Old February 2nd, 2013, 10:43 AM
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Mike M Mike M is offline
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I have to disagree with Paul on this one.

The only pedophile I have had to deal with was my Scout Master. He asked me to come to his tent on a camp out and when I found out why I was immediately out of there. I then went to the assistant scout master and told him what happened. I was reprimanded for lying and basically kicked out of the troop when we returned home. When that happened three other members of the troop came forward and told of what had happened to them. The scout master was dismissed and the entire thing was basically swept under the rug. We were told that it was our word against his. My father did openly tell him that if he came near me again he would kill him. This was in the late sixties and a mid-sized, Minnesota town. However word got out and the former scout leader moved within six months.

This man was a supposed heterosexual with a wife and two children.

This is the reason why I believe that pedophilia and abuse of children are the worst of crimes. Someone in a position of authority has great power over children and when it is used to take advantage of a child it can destroy that child's life. I was lucky and knew enough to not be intimidated or think it was OK. There are many kids who believe that they should do what this person wants and that they will be in trouble if they don't. I am still friends with one the kids in this troop that this leader molested and he still has issues to this day.

I can "understand" many capital crimes and believe that a life sentence is sufficient but I truly believe that molestation of a child by an adult should be punishable by death. A pedophile isn't rehabilitated. They are a cancer of society and like any cancer should be removed. Harsh, yes but it is how I feel.

So I'll take a gay scout master any day. Being gay doesn't make them a poor role model. Gay or straight I don't want a scout master even discussing their sexual preference.

Take care,
Mike
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  #30  
Old February 2nd, 2013, 11:21 AM
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Marsdude Marsdude is offline
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Quite well said Mike.

Also you have revealed the horrible situation that happens when the child is not believed. Kids, usually, do not make this stuff up.
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