Go Back   CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums > People > Open Debate

Open Debate The only forum to discuss politics and religion. Please keep it civil.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old March 12th, 2013, 03:28 PM
devilsadvocate devilsadvocate is offline
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 100
Default Knives on planes. I am against changing rule.

I side with the attendents on aircraft why give jehadists and other nitwits free rein to bring knives of any length on to aircraft. It sounds to me if I hear the one reason given for the change in the rule is to bring US regulations into line with international. Who is calling for rule change on US aircraft and routes the United Nations? Second reason given is that TSA wants their personnel to focus on more dangerous stuff like liquid bombs. What is going on are the TSA people so buzy they can't detect these items. I guess the sequestration will add more reasons for lax regulations.

I'm shocked that the airlines aren't screaming about permitting sports equipment being permitted on planes. This has got to mean reduced income in their pockets.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old March 13th, 2013, 11:11 AM
Lakers Fan Lakers Fan is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,576
Default

This is complete lunacy . Another reason why I probably will not fly anytime soon.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old March 13th, 2013, 12:36 PM
BigMac BigMac is offline
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Fremont CA
Posts: 201
Default

I thought the pocket knife ban was dumb...

Not a defensive type knife...a pen knife.

I see the rules about not bringing these on the plane as silly as no finger nail clippers.
I can have my keys, ink pens #2 pencils hell my cell phone cover could be used as a bludgen.

None of these things get me in the cockpit though..

Most of the security we go through as American traveling in the United States is for show and frankly a huge waste of money and time. Not to mention, being treated like a criminal being detained.
__________________




Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old March 13th, 2013, 01:39 PM
AR AR is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac View Post
Most of the security we go through as American traveling in the United States is for show and frankly a huge waste of money and time. Not to mention, being treated like a criminal being detained.
Absolutely right. The most worthwhile thing that's been done since 9/11 was to reinforce the cockpit doors. I can understand the FAs not wanting the knives simply because they don't want to get cut. Natural reaction. But a pocket knife won't bring down a plane in this day and age.

For people like devilsadvocate to say that our aviation security is somehow better than that in most of the rest of the developed world is just wrong. It is this kind of isolationist view that hurts us so badly in so many ways. Most of what we call security is just an expensive show. If we weren't so afraid of the word "profiling" we could accomplish a lot more with a lot less.

Back when you couldn't even have nail clippers, an airline captain of my acquaintance got caught with one in his uniform jacket. The TSA functionary made a big fuss and Matt said, "OK Kojak, ya got me. But consider this: in five minutes I'm gonna sit down next to a fire axe." What he didn't mention was the even more obvious fact, which I won't bother pointing out, except to say that he does have four stripes on his shoulder and is in complete charge of the aircraft.

It blows my mind that more than a decade after 9/11 they haven't even figured out a comprehensive way to pass flight crews through security quickly and efficiently. The background checks and ongoing proficiency and drug testing that pilots go through is far more comprehensive and rigorous than any "trusted traveler" requirement, and yet at most airports crews still go through the same drill as everybody else.

Somebody recently figured out what the savings would be if crews could get through on a retinal scan or fingerprint, and it was a shockingly big number.
__________________
The most dangerous man in society is the man who has nothing left to lose. -- Saul Bellow
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old March 14th, 2013, 06:10 PM
bonnyprincecharlie bonnyprincecharlie is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

I can only say that I hope that those people who want to have pocket knives removed from the prohibited list are on an airplane where a nut case slashes the jugular vein with a pocket knife of an innocent steward or stewardess and their is blood spraying all over the cabin and suddenly the passenger load shifts as passengers scamper to get away and the captian trys to right the aircraft. What do you do then? Too late to bar the disaster.

As to USA following the practices of other nations in their security practices. You had better start looking at where the underwear bomber started and the Loch abee bomber. The Europeans were not too smart. They are smart about tough that in a lot of these European airports they have machine gun-toting security guards - maybe the USA should start this practice.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old March 14th, 2013, 10:20 PM
AR AR is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonnyprincecharlie View Post
As to USA following the practices of other nations in their security practices. You had better start looking at where the underwear bomber started and the Loch abee bomber. The Europeans were not too smart. They are smart about tough that in a lot of these European airports they have machine gun-toting security guards - maybe the USA should start this practice.
Well you certainly can't go back to Lockerbie because that was in 1988, some 13 years before 9/11, long before the beefed up procedures that everybody uses today. Plus, of course that bomb was in checked baggage before they even invented the machines they use now. My advice would be to not do anything out of line at Heathrow Airport these days. And our guys would almost surely not have spotted the underwear bomber either. In my experience security at Schipol Airport in Amsterdam, where that flight originated, is incredibly comprehensive.

Of course, as you say, the answer to every issue is that we need more guns. Just pass out the weaponry, that'll do the trick. Maybe if we gave a gun to every passenger as they came down the jetway we could solve all our problems.

Absurd.
__________________
The most dangerous man in society is the man who has nothing left to lose. -- Saul Bellow
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old March 15th, 2013, 02:33 PM
BigMac BigMac is offline
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Fremont CA
Posts: 201
Default

After 911 when the airports had Nation Guard that's exactly what we had machine gun toting security guards.

I liked that ALOT better than body scans and fluff..

To the comment about a pocket knife to the neck... got any idea what a grown man can do with an ink pen or number 2 pencil??



We can even use the Israel model... and PROFILE!!
__________________




Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old March 15th, 2013, 02:44 PM
Mike M's Avatar
Mike M Mike M is offline
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: You're Looking At Me
Posts: 24,366
Default

I am in favor of profiling and "watching" people. It is probably the best way to keep the planes safe. It's sad but true.

You may get a 75 year old, mid-west, grandma to smuggle a few kilos of cocaine for money but I doubt you'll get her to strap a bomb to her body.

You can also do a lot of damage with a cut up credit card. One of the worst cuts I've had on my hand was when I was breaking up an old card by bending it back and forth and then tearing it. It was sharp.

I also have to add that even the "European" and U.S. security isn't too great. I traveled all over Europe this summer with a 30.06 shell in my duffel bag. It was in the bottom of one outside pocket and left over from a hunting trip the previous Fall. It was wedged into the seam and not visible to the naked eye but it sure should have been picked up on a scanner. I didn't even know it until I got home and "felt" it in the bottom of the pocket. I'm sure glad the scanner and x-ray folks weren't too swift or I would have had some big "Splainin to do".

Take care,
Mike
__________________
Cruisemates Community Leader/Moderator

"There is a great difference between being well traveled and just having been to many places." ~Me

"Fear is the assassin of dreams." ~Me
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old March 16th, 2013, 12:00 AM
AR AR is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac View Post
After 911 when the airports had Nation Guard that's exactly what we had machine gun toting security guards.

I liked that ALOT better than body scans and fluff..
It is a sad fact that what you "liked" may not have had any particular positive effect either. What were they to do? Shoot people at random and then search them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac View Post
To the comment about a pocket knife to the neck... got any idea what a grown man can do with an ink pen or number 2 pencil??
Or his bare hands, for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac View Post
We can even use the Israel model... and PROFILE!!
It's not just Israel. Really professional security people all over the world, and in the US as well (including senior TSA people and almost all border security people) are trained to profile, except they never use that word, because it is a lightening rod.
__________________
The most dangerous man in society is the man who has nothing left to lose. -- Saul Bellow
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old March 16th, 2013, 12:06 AM
AR AR is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
I also have to add that even the "European" and U.S. security isn't too great. I traveled all over Europe this summer with a 30.06 shell in my duffel bag.

Take care,
Mike
That's really crazy, and honestly the most damning single indictment I've ever heard. It's well known that the scanners are routinely out of whack in both directions--some too sensitive and some not sensitive enough. In fact, those who go through the same airports regularly actually figure out which lines to get in for minimum hassle. But for you to pass through more than once or twice with a shotgun shell is really amazing.
__________________
The most dangerous man in society is the man who has nothing left to lose. -- Saul Bellow
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old March 16th, 2013, 09:15 AM
Mike M's Avatar
Mike M Mike M is offline
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: You're Looking At Me
Posts: 24,366
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AR View Post
That's really crazy, and honestly the most damning single indictment I've ever heard. It's well known that the scanners are routinely out of whack in both directions--some too sensitive and some not sensitive enough. In fact, those who go through the same airports regularly actually figure out which lines to get in for minimum hassle. But for you to pass through more than once or twice with a shotgun shell is really amazing.
AR:
It was rifle shell. The bag went through screening in MSP, Barcelona, Amsterdam (twice), Wroclaw Poland, East Midlands (Nottingham) and Heathrow. It also went on board the Carnival Breeze. It was a checked bag and not a carry-on.

The only thing that I can fathom as to why it made it through was that in the same pocket I had electrical stuff such as a power strip and power converter. Or the scanners didn't pick up something that small. Though a 30.06 shell is about as long as my pinkie finger.

I too was flabbergasted and extremely lucky.

I also felt a bit embarrassed that I had left a shell in the bag.

Take care,
Mike
__________________
Cruisemates Community Leader/Moderator

"There is a great difference between being well traveled and just having been to many places." ~Me

"Fear is the assassin of dreams." ~Me
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old March 16th, 2013, 04:33 PM
AR AR is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M View Post

I also felt a bit embarrassed that I had left a shell in the bag.

Take care,
Mike
Oh, well checked bags are a different story. Ammunition is generally acceptable in checked bags. Of course, the bullets are supposed to be packed appropriately, but we won't quibble. Also have no idea whether your bullet was smaller or larger than .75 caliber, but again, touch foul at worst.

From the TSA:

Item: Ammunition
Carry-on: No
Checked: Yes

Small arms ammunition, including ammunition up to .75 caliber and shotgun shells of any gauge- Check with your airline or travel agent to see if ammunition is permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. Small arms ammunition for personal use must be securely packaged in fiber, wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ask about limitations or fees, if any, that apply.


Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, hunters gotta hunt.
__________________
The most dangerous man in society is the man who has nothing left to lose. -- Saul Bellow

Last edited by AR; March 16th, 2013 at 04:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old March 17th, 2013, 07:54 AM
Mike M's Avatar
Mike M Mike M is offline
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: You're Looking At Me
Posts: 24,366
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AR View Post
Oh, well checked bags are a different story. Ammunition is generally acceptable in checked bags. Of course, the bullets are supposed to be packed appropriately, but we won't quibble. Also have no idea whether your bullet was smaller or larger than .75 caliber, but again, touch foul at worst.

From the TSA:

Item: Ammunition
Carry-on: No
Checked: Yes

Small arms ammunition, including ammunition up to .75 caliber and shotgun shells of any gauge- Check with your airline or travel agent to see if ammunition is permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. Small arms ammunition for personal use must be securely packaged in fiber, wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ask about limitations or fees, if any, that apply.


Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, hunters gotta hunt.
Ammunition is a prohibited item in checked baggage within the EU.

As I said: I was lucky that is what not detected but it does show a hole in the screening process and that European security is not perfect.

Take care,
Mike
__________________
Cruisemates Community Leader/Moderator

"There is a great difference between being well traveled and just having been to many places." ~Me

"Fear is the assassin of dreams." ~Me
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old March 17th, 2013, 04:57 PM
AR AR is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
Ammunition is a prohibited item in checked baggage within the EU.

As I said: I was lucky that is what not detected but it does show a hole in the screening process and that European security is not perfect.

Take care,
Mike
Lordy, lordy. . .

What EVER do European hunters do?

The irony is that, last I heard, we were relaxing the knife standards to match the EU rules. Just as we live in a global marketplace, we live in a global travel environment. I didn't check the EU rules on bullets, of course, but there seems to be a lot of inconsistency all the way around.

Can't imagine how it got through at Schipol and Heathrow unless, as you say, the electronic jumble you were carrying masked it somehow. But I must admit that once at Heathrow Terry's two titanium knees didn't beep, which was a first anywhere in the world. That machine was seriously out of kilter.
__________________
The most dangerous man in society is the man who has nothing left to lose. -- Saul Bellow
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pocket knives austinleatherworks Norwegian Cruise Lines 9 November 1st, 2006 05:11 PM
LIQUOR ON PLANES?????????? PROJECTS OVER Carnival Cruise Lines 3 August 22nd, 2006 09:36 AM
Buying knives in Mexico Heidi Mexico 2 November 28th, 2005 05:37 PM
dive knives CJ Carnival Cruise Lines 7 September 9th, 2005 04:41 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:50 AM.
design by: Themes by Design